Beijing, the puppet master

[jfuh]

To all my Chinese brothers, and other's who want to express an opinion.
ARen't you sick of bejing telling you what to do? I mean seriously, one moment they support the boycotting of Japanese merchandise, the protesting against Japan, then all of a sudden when it seems overdone they tell you to shut up, follow the law or you will be severely punished.
I was all gun ho about protesting against Japan until I realized how comfortable Beijing got with the notion, almost gloating to some extent over how much power they had of 1/4 of the world's population. It started to seem like the cultural revolution all over again (of course only what I've read, seen in documentaries and heard from family that lived through it).
All in all it was really another viel that was being pulled over our eyes to keep our focus away from events happening domestically such as the new zoning of commercial/ farming areas on outskirts of cities. More Chinese in poverty lost thier homes within the last 3 months then in the past year all together. The continuous coverup of the extensive collaborationg between industry and local government with regards to unimaginable pollution and financial kick-backs.
As much as I find the Japanese government pathetic, the Chinese government is just disgusting. Japan regardless of, is a foreign power, for them to say things or do thing's for thier own interest is understandable and acceptable to a certain degree, for your own government to be toying around with your livlyhood the way it does is unforgivable.
The UN today pointed out the 20 worst cities in the world, China managed to capture 16 of those; citing pollution as a major cause for the low rating.

[Krsnik]

Well, I tend to stay away from political issues, because the gov't is really just trying to screw you over. I hardly believe that the people who are in office, are there specifically because they care about the country. More than likely, they're just doing what they can to hold onto the job, and that's it.

But.. like I said, I stay away from political issues. I don't even read the news, and I'm unsure who the current prime minister is (Canada.. Pierre Trudeau or someone?)
So maybe I'm dead wrong. :p

[S&T Kawaii Love]

Yes I think you are so right. Bejing is C. R. A. Z. Y. I think the same about that. I believe bejing does not care for the common hard working citizen. Look at how many ppl are poor and the living conditions. It's just a political game for power and attention. They only use there own citizens when they need you, like you pointed out. It really strange that they don't act during demonstrations and later they be so crude to there own people.

[[UNKNOWN]]

To all my Chinese brothers, and other's who want to express an opinion.
ARen't you sick of bejing telling you what to do?

HELL YES. The people from Hong Kong have always been neutral, we're probably the only city in China that welcomes people from all over the world, and NOT just for the amount in their wallets. We dont' care if they decide to invest in HK or not, it's not important, that's why we've been able to foster the mix of cultural environment today.

Lately though I've seen my hometown sliding downhill. Politically, we have no say. "Puppet Master" is an apt term, the "2 governments" thing is a load of BS. We basically have "puppet" running the HK government, controlled of course from beijing by mandarin-speaking politicians whose only knowledge of HK comes from a once in a blue moon 5 day tour.

No wonder the people of HK have always sympathize with Taiwan and been neutral to China's rivals Japan and US. Most people in Hong Kong distrust and dislike Beijing, we think their government is too damn irrational and oppressive. Not to mention their corrupt politicians who care nothing for the suffering and misery of the common people.
The recent floods of hookers and cheap labourers from mainland China into HK, Taiwan, Japan and US is pretty telltale of the all problems.


I'm with Krsnik (cute robo-ky ava btw), politics is screwed up and filled with selfish, corrupt people, that's why I try to stay away from it as far as I can too.

[Serene852]

Yes, Beijing is crazy. Which makes me wonder, is China is worthy of hosting the 2008 olympic games?
Personally,Beijing could and should improve in many areas. :::human rights...:::

I found a link: http://www.olympicwatch.org/news.php?id=74

This page states the "Minimum Standards for Beijing 2008".
I definitely agree, especially with this: NO USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST PEACEFUL DEMOCRATIC ACTION.

[miscman]

The UN today pointed out the 20 worst cities in the world, China managed to capture 16 of those; citing pollution as a major cause for the low rating.
Please can you post a link to this report? I would like to read it. Thanks. :)

[jfuh]

Please can you post a link to this report? I would like to read it. Thanks. :)
http://www.time.com/time/asia/2003/china_boom/china_environment.html
http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/china.html
http://www.worldbank.org/html/fpd/em/ccts_for_china/ccts_for_china.htm

[karasuma]

jfuh,

Well, you have been away from China for a while and the great firewall of china doesn't work on you anymore. What you feel here is just the fact that you are forming your own opinion based on information from multiple sources. Ie. freedom of speech.

[UNKNOWN]

Ha.. guess what, I am from Hong Kong too. You know. It is always easier to give up than working to solve the problem. If there is a problem, the fix got to come from somewhere and leaving the problem alone is not one of the solution.

[Mai Tokiha]

That's absolutely right. I also got the impression that Beijing encouraging all the protests against Japan had the sole purpose of keeping the people occupied so they wouldn't notice the pitiful circumstances in their own country.
The big communist regimes are thankfully finally coming to an end. Russia already fell apart, with many parts of the original Sovjetunion becoming individual countries, and China won't last that much longer anymore either - it seems the communist regime is really struggling hard to stay in power and is using now whatever means it deems neccessary, besides the usual oppression and desinformation stuff. Let's hope that it will fall apart real soon so the chinese people will be freed from its brutal oppression and all the associated stuff.

[Kikklik]

you start to hate people when you work for government.

[Karis Fra Mauro]

It seems like right now the Chinese government is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. Having a strong economy on the one hand, but not giving up political power on the other. It's working so far, but sooner or later a choice between the two will have to be made. The current unrest is a good example how trying to channel dissent into "safe" avenues, like against Japan, will only work up to a point. I have a feeling the government didn't want things to go as far as they have, since it's threatening trade. You have to wonder what the situation will be like by the time the Olympics roll around. I'm somewhat pessimistic on this score myself. I think the chinese people are too pragmatic for anything like a disaster, but there are bound to be some pretty severe hiccups on the road between now and then.

[gdx9902]

I agree with the post of Beijing being the puppet master in all these recent events, and has saddened me that they have to resort to these tactics when everything is going well. Well not so well interms of the bidding for the oil pipeline from russia. But you have to wonder y they are doing the things they are doing. First off being a comunist/socialist regime, means u have to adhere to certian guidelines ( for show of course). and controlling 1/4 of the world's population isnt an easy task.

I must give the beijing government credit in getting the chinese economy back in fairly good standing, as more people are looking at china as the land of opportunity. But i find that pride is mixing in and well we know how far that goes. As for the politics, there isnt one politician on this planet that doesnt want to have the cake and eat it. They all want to have the cake and eat it. WE all say oh china's bad about human rights, or they are letting polution etc etc, the list is endless. But you have to think we dont really have the right to say these things because in our respective countries we've done the same thing and doing them but we dont hear about them. and no one said anything or changed it. Example. UK and thier industrial revolution. US and the genocide of native americans, the carving of the middle east for the US, European, and Soviet powers, The Isreali and pakistani conflict, The slavery issue, and let's not forget, the complete robbery of India from the British, where they literally mined every diamond, emeral, ruby, etc from india.
talk about being raped, pillaged, tortured and more.

They say oh beijing is covering up so much, well we have examples of that Right here in north America that can leave China in the dust. The current scandal in Canadian politics. The avrow arrow project, the watergate scandal. And u want cover ups what about the trail against bill gates a few years back when he refused to comply with the US government. After he agreed the trail hushed up, and we didnt even hear of anything of the aftermath. And also take a look at our poverty rate in the US. why arent we concentrating on them and helping ourselves first. Y are we even worrying what china does to itself. We have so many problems, like 4 yr olds operating guns, etc etc. I think it's because it's a whole lot easier to try to fix someone else's problem than fix your own. I cant believe how complacent we have become.

Overall my point is everything bejing has done is doing to build up CHINA ( and of course themselves), and all these things they are doing has been learned from the West because that's how they must be to stay competative and a power in the world. By the West I mean, Europe, and N. America. All these actions we have seen before and they somehow worked and evolved into our current society. Unfortunatley it's not pretty but that's the only proven method.

[Ryuji]

To all my Chinese brothers, and other's who want to express an opinion.
ARen't you sick of bejing telling you what to do? I mean seriously, one moment they support the boycotting of Japanese merchandise, the protesting against Japan, then all of a sudden when it seems overdone they tell you to shut up, follow the law or you will be severely punished.
I was all gun ho about protesting against Japan until I realized how comfortable Beijing got with the notion, almost gloating to some extent over how much power they had of 1/4 of the world's population. It started to seem like the cultural revolution all over again (of course only what I've read, seen in documentaries and heard from family that lived through it).
All in all it was really another viel that was being pulled over our eyes to keep our focus away from events happening domestically such as the new zoning of commercial/ farming areas on outskirts of cities. More Chinese in poverty lost thier homes within the last 3 months then in the past year all together. The continuous coverup of the extensive collaborationg between industry and local government with regards to unimaginable pollution and financial kick-backs.
As much as I find the Japanese government pathetic, the Chinese government is just disgusting. Japan regardless of, is a foreign power, for them to say things or do thing's for thier own interest is understandable and acceptable to a certain degree, for your own government to be toying around with your livlyhood the way it does is unforgivable.
The UN today pointed out the 20 worst cities in the world, China managed to capture 16 of those; citing pollution as a major cause for the low rating.


Nice way to talk about our country.

[yung]

Nice way to talk about our country.
at least, this is the truth, and so is every political party everywhere...
bear the truth with us, and you might understand what Chinese pride is.

[gdx9902]

You make an interesting point Jfuh, true, china is doing what they are doing is harmful, and the ends by no means justifies the means, and also the fact that china is doing things that others have learned in the past and that data is available to them but they are doing anyways, like all people in power who want a strong infrastructure, they dont care. No one in that position really cares. Heck the US has one of the largest number of coal plants in the world. About pollution, check out the great lakes between Canada and the US. I dont want to go US bashing but what about the anti drug movemnt the government has, which you must realize they will never stop it since drugs constitute 3 trillion dollars of revenue a year globaly. drugs are harmful to society, everyone agrees on that, and they should be minimized, but it's not. And as for the wasteland thing, it's going to take a while since china is now one of the world's largest exporters finished goods and importers of raw material. All countries are playing the same game, let other countries deplete thier resources while we sit on a stockpile. In the end when they are gone we control the last of the resources and gain near infinite power and leverage.

It's a sad thing but money rules this planet, we cannot escape it, if there is money to be made, people will exploit it, no matter how much you *****, wince or cry.

As for the taiwan, China only wants it for 2 reasons. Control of the south china seas resources(because that is untapped) and for military strategic placement ( they do no want the the cuban missile crisis which happened to the states 40 years ago happen to them). That's it, all this facade of one china policy is a cover up for the first two reasons i have mentioned.

Jfuh, i hate to burst your bubble, but when it boils down to a choice of money and a preventing a wasteland, Most people would choose money. It's sad i know, but it's one of the cruel ironies in life. We do not live in a rational and logical world. We live in exactly the opposite.

So to sum things up, before people start picking down what country is doing what or what they are doing bad, etc etc, I suggest looking deep down inside at ourselves first, in our own respective countries. It's so easy to pick the flaws but much harder to pick the good attributes. From my point of view, I dont like what I see, and I'm in Canada ( the world's supposedly most friendliest and kindest nation). true China,US, UK, all have thier bad merits, and good merits, but in the end I feel that we must start acting, now if you want a topic to ***** about it's people's lack of motivation and lack of resposibility and overall fear. That is what I think allows corrupt power hungry people to take control and rule all the other people's lives and make it a living hell( if they dont cover up).

[jfuh]

Nice way to talk about our country.
Regardless of opinion, the facts remain.

With respect to "gdx" though, the difference between Beijing and other countries is how they cover up. They don't even try to cover it up. These other countries have freedom of press, China however has pure government propaganda. So if the situation doesn't suit economic progress, shut it up and change the methodology of evaluation so that it still passes the tests.
Sure they've done some good things, but the end never justifies the means when the means are knowingly harmful. Not the case with the Industrial revolution or during other nation's industrialization, they knew very little about environmental protection or toxicity towards human beings back in those days. Yet China today with the knowledge from other countries still fast forwards through all of that regardless of birth defects or increased cancer rates in major metropolitan areas as a result of all the pollution in water sources and the atmosphere.
It's all neccesary for China's internal stability sure, that's fine, but what would be the use of money if you are left with a wasteland?
Then there's Taiwan which is a hair trigger for Beijing. Ok, regardless of whether you are a pro-independence or pro-reclamation. Here are the facts.
#1 Taiwan has been and always will be a part of China for nearly 5000 years. To say that Sun Yat Sen is a foriegner is a huge disgrace.
#2 Since 1945 Taiwan has and remains ROC, it has never been a part of PRC, by all international standards it is indeed a seperate government. It is not a rogue state as beijing claims because the communist regime never had any control over the island. How can you be rogue if you don't have anything to be rogue from? Beijing has no authority over the island, and I hope it will not until it changes it's domestic paranoia and corruption (ie Hong Kong is a mess).
#3 We all know that PRC is just playing on a technicality that there is only one China, and since Taiwan is part of China then by default it is part of the current regime. However it's not the case and it is more similar to the "Song" dynasties when at one point there were two governments being north Song and south Song.

[jfuh]

Jfuh, i hate to burst your bubble, but when it boils down to a choice of money and a preventing a wasteland, Most people would choose money. It's sad i know, but it's one of the cruel ironies in life. We do not live in a rational and logical world. We live in exactly the opposite.
thus is the cold hard truth of life. Self greed over the general good.
Maybe we at hong fire should take over the world lol :cool:

[gdx9902]

thus is the cold hard truth of life. Self greed over the general good.
Maybe we at hong fire should take over the world lol :cool:

And what better way of deluding people by convincing the masses to give them power and the right to take what ever course of action for the "general public good" for all the people.

[Kalis]

jfuh:
I think "freedom of press" might surprise you when it comes to National interests. Or rather, the facts might be around, but only if you actively search for them.

As an example, compare media reports on Saddam Hussein when he was essentially an American ally, to media reports on him when he became an enemy. Suddenly, information about all his terrible acts came flooding out. He was doing it for years, but the information didn't come out until he was The Enemy.

In fact, it is an accepetd fact among academics that the U.S. foreign policy is really about empire-building.
"From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against intolerable regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
Some examples of dictators friendly to the U.S. (or were) are given here:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dictators/Friendly_Dictators.html
But I digress.

gdx:
of course China wants Taiwan for cold-hearted reasons! I don't think anybody denies that. Every government does what it does for in an attempt to strengthen their country.

For China, I think it is really a matter of whether you believe the ends justifies the means. The individual or the country.
Every industrialized country went through a phase similar to what China is going through right now. Of course, China's is probably a bit more drastic, partly because it's trying to become a superpower, and in a very short timespan.

[jfuh]

I think "freedom of press" might surprise you when it comes to National interests. Or rather, the facts might be around, but only if you actively search for them.

As an example, compare media reports on Saddam Hussein when he was essentially an American ally, to media reports on him when he became an enemy. Suddenly, information about all his terrible acts came flooding out. He was doing it for years, but the information didn't come out until he was The Enemy.

Though there is much influence of media from the government on many issues, however having freedom of the press also holds accountability for thier actions (ie. Watergate, Erin Brokovich). More importantly people would have the freedom of expressing thier opinions without fear of prosecution (or at least the projection of). In essence at least some issues would neccesitate populist support. Sure information can be manipulated. But when government doesn't have complete control over media (ie Hong Kong) there's much good that can come of it. It'd at least be a start, instead of pure government propaganda. Right now there is no accountablity at all in China, nor does the government bear the responsibilities that it should, which means the citizens have no rights if they are not wealthy enough to bribe an official.
Corruption is what had brought down all previous governments in China, this is the first unprecedented event in CHinese history where no longer is one man in charge, up top it's pretty much every man for himself, so there may be light at the end of the tunnel. With information flowing as it does today, chat rooms, text messaging, it's not as easy to censor information as it used to. Some form of change for the better is inevitable.

[bonmuno]

Don't worry. China will ultimately adopt democracy and everything that democracy entails. Probably within our lifetimes too.

I think they've already made progress; there's a capitalist system in place of the old communist system. However, China has not yet opened up to free speech or other democratic ideas because it believes that the majority of its people are not sufficiently educated enough and should not have so much sway in the workings of the government.

This is not a purely Chinese idea either. The founding fathers of the US recognized the "toxic combination" of "uneducated masses and democracy" (their words, not mine) To this day, we cannot directly elect our presidents. And what a different world it might be if we could (Al Gore as president?) And it was not until the Progressive Era that we could even directly elect our senators!

As Chinese citizens inevitably get a better education, democracy, free speech, free press, referendum, and all that good stuff will also become a more integral part of Chinese society. So don't worry, it's only a matter of time.

[alucard81]

I agree.... every goverment in the world attempts to control their people in more than one way, the land of the truely free would probably equate to the land of eternal chaos as the bottomline is humans are just not self-restraining enough, if social values means nothing then only the law is able to exert control unfortunately law is based upon social morals....
China is on the road to becoming more socialist democratic as time progresses, it wun become a system where they have two polictical parties vying for goverment (which is really bull cos there is sufficient evidence that says that the two parties in the US both represent the same national/coperate interests) i would have reservations of how the system would work totally although it is possible as thru education n propaganda it is possible to raise a generation of subservant people.... i get that a lot from ppl who feel that the Singapore goverment is an expert at doing this..... however, i cannot neglect the fact that the goverment in Singapore does its work for the good of the majority of the population so i wun go into that kind of complaint.... it would be much more difficult to replicate the same system in China but it is possible and will take time as the education level of the people rise so will their ability to self censure and self critic.... for a democratic system to work the goverment HAS to be able to self censure and self critic

as for the Taiwan issue, if they go independant, Taiwan will just become a vessel for the US and Japan as a counter measure to limit the progress of China (sad but true, these two countries are involved in the row just because it suits their needs) i hope that the bill to buy the new weapons from the US never get passed in Taiwan... it just allows the US to take what they want from that place and gain while the other parties make a loss.....

[Rigby]

I think china could possibly see two or three more revolutions within a 100 year period. It is also quite possible that it will be split into multiple countries within that 100 year period. China is always a wild card when it comes to world affairs in my view of things.

[bonmuno]

China may certainly go through several changes in the future, but I doubt that it will split into multiple countries. Partially because of its new anti-secession legislation and partially because the changes will not take the form of "revolution" but will be introduced gradually as Chinese citizens become collectively more educated and more aware of the "outside" world. Besides, if a country split up every time reform was introduced, a country like the US would would be significantly smaller. (Agrarian Populist movement, Prohibition, Progressive Era, Civil Rights movement, to name a few US reforms that failed to split up the US)

[Mai Tokiha]

I think china could possibly see two or three more revolutions within a 100 year period. It is also quite possible that it will be split into multiple countries within that 100 year period. China is always a wild card when it comes to world affairs in my view of things.
Yes, I think that's quite probable. After the other big communist country (the Sovjet Union) collapsed, many countries split off over time. The same thing will probably happen to China, and this could be rather soon even.

[Para]

jfuh
Please use the edit button instead of consecutive posting.

Ryuji
Please keep your comments constructive and practical.

And yes... darn the chinese government! (Im chinese too though)
If the chinese government didn't meddle in the affairs of the summer olympic games, i bet Toronto Canada would've gotten the games!

[alucard81]

Yes, I think that's quite probable. After the other big communist country (the Sovjet Union) collapsed, many countries split off over time. The same thing will probably happen to China, and this could be rather soon even.

I dun see why this would happen... the USSR situation is slightly different, it was a union of many states that formed the union. During the time it was breaking up a lot of the members were unhappy with the reforms that were being put into place by Mikhail Gorbachev, especially since he released the stranglehold that Moscow had on information to the people (it was a step towards a more socialist kind of setting which Stalin totally stamped down on) his polictical rivals exposed the weaknesses in his policies and forced him to resign. Gorbachev then handed the reigns to Yeltsin and a lot of the republic members (Ukraine, Belarus etc) resolved their membership of the union which was already brewing while Gorbachev was in power. Quite a bit of evidence points to the US egging them on to the eventual dissolvement of the USSR although much of the cause was internal self decay of the USSR economy then.
As for China, the people have been thru the Cultural Revolution which I think the CCP will try to prevent from happening again using all any means possible. Reform should gradually take place, I feel that if the party resovles their control or ownership of the People Liberation Army things will really kick start. this will mean that the country owns the army and not the party which is really something left over from the war.... a federation system similar to the USSR system did not exsist in the first place and thus a disolvement similar to it will not occur, if Tibet, XinJiang all seek independance they will just become defenceless to their neighbours. Much of the middle plains form the core part of the old chinese empire the states that make up the old empire have always been part of china and were never republics.... dun see how they will split up.... if a split does happen at the most i would see places like Tibet and XinJiang try to declare independance and becoming vessels of their neighbours due to their frail defences. Besides, China is not even that big.