SEEDERS: Use BitTornado SUPER-SEED

[gurururu]

I'm not sure where to put this, but there should be a place on this site that explains why seeders need to use the Bit TOrnado Super Seed algorithm.

Normally this cuts the upload time in half. But when you've got, sometimes upwards of 100 people leeching from one seeds base it cuts the upload time to around one tenth... This is because the original seed is sending out the same data over and over if you DON'T use Super-Seed.

Just an FYI.

[Aricin]

I think a few other programs use it as well; I believe Azureus has super-seed built in, and it seems to be pretty popular.

[Chidori]

ABC also has Super Seed Mode

[Shragei]

Super-seed should only be used for the initial seeding.

Super-seed mode is NOT recommended for general use. While it does assist in the wider distribution of rare data, because it limits the selection of pieces a client can downlad, it also limits the ability of those clients to download data for pieces they have already partially retrieved. Therefore, super-seed mode is only recommended for initial seeding servers.
--http://wiki.theory.org/BitTorrentSpecification

[CCNaru]

i remember some jdrama chan doing super-seed and the seeded one left...so he got pissed. if u dont wanna waste bw, don't use it.

[AnimeJanai]

Superseed mode doesn't behave or perform the same on different clients, so generic advice of "Use superseed only if initial seeder" is not applicable. That advice has the requirement of several conditions which do not normally exist. In actual practice, having more seeders use superseeding mode benefits torrents that suffer from superleeching more so than regular seeding. The more superleeching that goes on in a torrent, the more that superseeding mode should be used by all the seeders.

Why is superseeding mode better than regular seeding mode for stressed-out torrents? There are several significant benefits. Superseeding mode spreads your bandwidth evenly across all the people you are seeding to. Thus, a superleecher cannot suck all of your bandwidth whereas with regular seeding mode, your client tends to feed the leecher more of your bandwidth with regards to the other peers you are seeding to. Another benefit is that people using hacked clients will have little advantage with your client's seeding algorithm. Hacked clients depend on the other peers using regular seeding mode, so you can think of superseeding mode as a form of innoculation against hacked client users. Yet another benefit is that users who hit-and-run will benefit much less from you. In fact, if all the seeders utilized superseed mode, the hit-and-run users would end up uploading more because the superleechers would suck from them in preference from sucking from your superseeding mode.

Also mentioned above was that some bittorrent clients differ in how they treat superseed mode. I will pick the two major clients (Azureus vs Shadow/Tornado) as examples. Azureus will automatically turn off superseed mode as soon as it detects another seeder exists and will not turn it back on automatically if the seeder leaves. Shadow(Tornado) will KEEP superseed mode on until you manually turn it off, so this client is a better choice for superseeding mode than Azureus.

My experience with Superseed mode came the hard way from service as an LPO at BoxTorrents.

* CONCEPTS MENTIONED:
(1) Superleecher -- someone who takes VERY much more than he gives (very bad Ratio) or someone who does hit-and-run downloading.
(2) Ratio -- upload/download ratio is mentioned in FAQ at http://btfaq.com
(3) Seeder -- an official bittorrent term which means you have reached 100% completion and are now exclusively uploading. Many users incorrectly refer to seeding as a synonym for "uploading".
(4) Superseeding Mode -- is not enabled if you are still downloading as a peer. It is only enabled when you are a Seeder.

[gurururu]

Yeah, what AnimeJanai said... :)

I'm sure some of you understand programming very well. The concept of what Super Seed does makes it superior to normal seeding.
If you're the initial seed it should always be used. This was really the point of my original post.

[syia]

Yup, SuperSeeding is a must. For those that don't use it, you're stuck seeding the file for days depending on the filesize.

To simply put and from my experiences. You can finish seeding a 550-700MB file (uploading 1 complete distro copy) in 9-14hrs on a 10-15kb/s upload line. For larger files, 1.8GB; it should only take roughtly 32-34hrs on the same upload rate.

If you compare that to normal seeding, the 550-700MB would take you 2-3 days to seed and the 1.8GB file won't be done for a week!

[pringles89]

thanks for the info. just turned on superseeding for bittornado on cf2.

i had previously thought that super seeding should only be used by initial seeder...

[Shragei]

Why is superseeding mode better than regular seeding mode for stressed-out torrents? There are several significant benefits. Superseeding mode spreads your bandwidth evenly across all the people you are seeding to. Thus, a superleecher cannot suck all of your bandwidth whereas with regular seeding mode, your client tends to feed the leecher more of your bandwidth with regards to the other peers you are seeding to. Another benefit is that people using hacked clients will have little advantage with your client's seeding algorithm. Hacked clients depend on the other peers using regular seeding mode, so you can think of superseeding mode as a form of innoculation against hacked client users. Yet another benefit is that users who hit-and-run will benefit much less from you. In fact, if all the seeders utilized superseed mode, the hit-and-run users would end up uploading more because the superleechers would suck from them in preference from sucking from your superseeding mode.


Super-seeding needs to be switched off after the whole file(s) has been distributed because it stops being effective. When a client is in super-seed mode. It watches the network to find out who has what. Gives out the peaces that are missing, then watches if that peace it just given out sprouts up on another peer. Because the super-seed client knows what is missing from the group of peers, it has the capability to track where the new peaces are going. Now if the whole torrent is already out among the peers super-seed loses its effectiveness.
Lets say your client is setup in super seed and someone downloads a peace from you lets call him client A. Client A doesn't need to give share the peace out. Someone else (client B) will eventually download that same peace from another client. Client B will then tell everyone else that is downloading the same file(s) that he has this peace. That is exactly what your client in super-seed is looking for. The announcement that someone else has download the peace. The leacher will still be capable for leaching from a super-seeder.
the key thing to BitTorrent is that there is no way to know who got what from who. Only who has what.
I really suggest a good reading of the web page I have in my first post. This one: http://wiki.theory.org/BitTorrentSpecification The only thing that needs to be read is between algorithms and change log

[AnimeJanai]

References to the definition of superseeding as being only for initial seeding, they are implicitly requiring that their Swarm behave according to the ideal case model of a bittorrent Swarm.

It's fine to turn superseeding off if you have an ideal case theoretical bittorrent Swarm. For some trackers, this may be a reasonable assumption (such as if you are serving Bible translations in various languages via torrent).

At BoxTorrents, we often had superleechers post dissenting thoughts in the forums or the IRC channel. That was because they wanted all the users to keep the tracker as fertile as possible for superleeching. So, if the staff was thinking of putting in registration required the would post "NO!!!". So if the staff was thinking of putting in Ratio requirements they would post "NO!!!". And if the staff recommended more users from the regular re-seeding team consistently use superseeding mode, the superleechers would post "NO!!!". From our experience, it was clear that knowledgeable superleechers were always opposed to the use or even proposal of any methods that would reduce their ability to superleech.

Concepts such as registration, Ratio, and use of superseeding outside of initial seeding are measures to deal with non-ideal situations. Granted that these measures are themselves not ideal, but the bittorrent specification has a lot of problems since most of the security and therefore honesty is in the hands of client (fox guarding chickens).

[Bad Bluff]

in short super seeding is for,

Super Seeding is a special optimised seeding mode.
Only use this mode when you are the first and only seeder.
Each peer will be assigned a piece, and the client will then compute the time it takes for that particular piece to be seen again the swarm, thus identifying peers with high upload speed, to which the client will preferentially give data.

[Lisa Hayes]

Yup! Just as the thread says, seeders (or should i say, uploaders) should utilize this wonderful feature that is present in the most popular clients such as BitTornado, Azureus, etc...

[srea]

Azureus doesn't seem to have super-seed, I've tried BitTornado once...

So, don't use super-seed if there're seeders right?

[Bad Bluff]

Azureus doesn't seem to have super-seed, I've tried BitTornado once...

So, don't use super-seed if there're seeders right?
Azureus do have super-seeding and yes do not super-seed when there is some seeders already.

[srea]

Azureus do have super-seeding and yes do not super-seed when there is some seeders already.

Does azureus have super-seeding? I can't find it.

[Bad Bluff]

In Options ----> Queue---->Seeding: Use SuperSeeding

but i don't know how it works newer used it. I realy dislike Azureus.

[pangsit]

If I remember correctly, by using superseed, we only need uploading about 105-110% of the torrent size. But I always upload 170-190% of the torrent size by using it.
I wonder what's wrong. :confused: Is it because I'm uploading too slow (at 2-5kBps speed) and many clients give up already before the chunk is finished?

[Gasoline]

Does superseed only apply to only one file or several files?......Wait.... BitTornado can only upload one file at a time right? Cus I was only able to upload a file at a time =/

[pangsit]

One BitTornado window (instance) belongs to one torrent and a torrent can have more than one file.
You can always seed more than one torrent by opening more BitTornado windows.

[AnimeJanai]

That generic advice (to never use superseeding if another seeder exists) at the original source of superseeding (Shadow / Tornado) was meant for the generic user. For the knowledgeable users who know what they are doing, superseeding mode is a useful ally.

As I said before and will say again, the superleechers are those who hate superseeding the most. The worse the superleecher, the more adversely that superleeching affects them from using hit and run. The better the user, the more they benefit from superseeders because over time, the overall speed of the whole torrent goes up as people share the Pieces with each other once superseeding by multiple seeders has gotten going for awhile.

The generic advice for superseeding being done by only the original seeder is most valid in the ideal case for torrents where the users behave in an ideal way and do not practice hit and run or other cheating tactics and strategies. Of course, the better the overall users in the torrent, the less need there is for more than one superseeder. However, users have capped uploads and run multiple downloads at the same time which splits their upload rate even more. So, the more that happens, the more valid it is for more than one superseeder to exist.

[Bad Bluff]

That generic advice (to never use superseeding if another seeder exists) at the original source of superseeding (Shadow / Tornado) was meant for the generic user. For the knowledgeable users who know what they are doing, superseeding mode is a useful ally.

Most peeple seems to not have a clue about it. they turn it on becouse they think it will give them more speed in downloading or something (super seeding? whoa that sounds coool it must do something great). Super seeding is usefull but as you said it must be used with care and knowlage. I don't consider myself as super-leecher are you implaying something?

[srea]

May be some client will have "super-leecher"(Downloading without upload any data???)Just kidding
I'm try not to use super-seed....

[Bad Bluff]

May be some client will have "super-leecher"(Downloading without upload any data???)Just kidding

Sadly there are clients that download and do not send zinch.

[Anji]

The thing that I noticed about superseeding is that when I use that mode, even when there are no other seeders, my upload rate actually goes DOWN. That is, say I'm trying to max out my upload at 40K. Even with upload set to unlimited, when I change to superseed, my rates often changes to something smaller like 20K. Because of this, I often change from superseeder back to regular upload. Anyone else ever see this or know what the problem might be? I use Shadow experimental BT client.

[chief977]

I use shareaza and i never had any problems so far. i just keep the upload/download speed at max and let it fly. I try to seed at least 200%+ of what i get.